For anyone who grew up in the late 1990s and early 2000s, Lucy Lawless is synonymous with sword wielding warrior princess Xena in the TV show of the same name. For the past thirty years, Lawless has made a name in cult sci-fi and fantasy shows like Battlestar Galactica (2004), Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (2013) as well as more comedic turns in Parks and Recreation (2009) and horror-comedy Ash vs Evil Dead (2015). But now Lawless makes the leap to directing with documentary Never Look Away, a film about photojournalist Margaret Moth, the New Zealand-born camerawoman who risked her life in war zones during the Gulf War. FILMHOUNDS spoke with Lawless about this incredible woman and film.
Having been an actor in film and TV for thirty years, what led you to taking the leap to directing?
Thirty-eight years!
I was trying to be polite. I'm British.
Thirty-eight years! Oh my. You know, I never intended to but Margaret's legend grabbed me by the ears and booted me through the directing door. I just leapt at the chance.
What made you go down the documentary route rather than, say, a dramatisation?
Well I still would have had to have done all the interviews because there was nothing written about Margaret. Even diaries, so I would still have had to go out and find the information. Plus, COVID was rearing its ugly head, and I became mighty afraid that everyone who knew the story of Margaret would die, or if we didn't get finance for another ten years they'd have forgotten. So, the time was right there, the only thing I could control was to get started right away, otherwise it might never have happened.
It still would have taken years. You have to get a writer, it had to be the right writer to shape the story. You have to do the interviews to gather all the knowledge, and it just seemed like the most immediate thing I could do.
This year we've seen a few films about women in photojournalism, the Lee Miller film with Kate Winslet, Civil War by Alex Garland, and of course this — what is it about this time in politics and journalism that has people making films about the importance of women in this field?
I guess it feels fresh to people. To look at things from a woman's point of view. In my case I'm less interested in quote-unquote object fact, I'm much more interested in subjective accounts, so that the audience is the arbiter of what's true and what's not. I have, however, when in doubt when there's innuendo or things I couldn't corroborate, or things that I found evidence against, that didn't make it into the film. So, I am trying to give legitimate honest data to the audience but the audience gets to decide who's reliable or not. I think it's just a new way of experiencing a story, when you're going through subtext, and what are people really saying. The dissonance between what they're saying and how they're saying it. That's the female gaze. I think to do war from a woman's point of view or through the cypher of a female character seems new, I guess, to people.
Journalism has always been a very dangerous field to work in — especially when you're in active war zones — and your film looks at the toll that it takes on a person caught in crossfires and snipers. How do you toe the line between it being a celebration of a brave, fearless person but also not shying away from the reality of what it's like to be literally shot in the face?
How? I guess I just don't want to hide anything. I wasn't even thinking about the balance. She was incredibly fearless, but the one time she was sitting in the back of the van with the rest of her colleagues was the one time she got badly injured. There's a horrible irony, in fact, she did nothing to put herself in that position. I just wanted to tell it all, and not just her work life but her private life. That meant going through her lovers, because they were the only ones who knew the spikiness of Margaret but she could also be really kittenish as well. She was loving in the way she shared her knowledge, that was the way she showed her love, but she was not a naturing person. Neither were any of her family, for whatever reason. That's why I went through the lovers, they were the only ones who could see her in her most vulnerable, her most private moments. We could reveal the cruelty and their addiction to her.
With journalism, it's become a very difficult subject in recent times, with certain billionaires talking about the death of “legacy media” and certain presidents talking about “fake news”. Was it important to you to show people that these are real people in situations?
Yes! Very much so.
They need to be documented.
Exactly. I'm sick of hearing that all news is bullshit, because for these people there is no self-interest in what they do, they're facing danger. As you and I sit here right now, in Gaza, Sudan and Ukraine and Moscow, they just want to get the story out, so we can instruct our governments about what we want them to do on our behalf. It's important. However, they are not in control of the messaging or how it is going to be used. They're aware of that, because it's outside of their scope of control, they just can't think about it. They're just going to bloody-mindedly shoot those stories as best they can and feed it back in the hope that it makes it to our news.
What your film particularly says is that you need people with a moral compass to shoot these things, especially today where everyone has a phone and could technically be a journalist — we can shoot everything — but if you don't have that moral centre it can be used for nefarious means. That's something your film points out.
That's right, your bosses can be packaging it to be favourable to the government or one side or the other. But these people, they're dying out there to bring us the truth, they're dying for the truth. I think they deserve our protection. So that was very much my second drive in doing [the] film.
When you're dealing with someone who is so striking like Margaret, she has a fantastic look about her, she could easily become a collection of buzzwords: brave, fearless, radical. How did you go about making sure she was a fully rounded person — you spoke about past lovers. She was a three-dimensional person.
Oh gosh, there was so much I just couldn't fit into eighty-six minutes. You could definitely make a mini-series out of her life. But there was so much that either I couldn't corroborate it, or I would get into so much legal hot water for positing it as true in a documentary — even though most of it likely is true — I'm not an investigative journalist. There was so much about her early life in New Zealand that would besmirch a lot of people and I can't verify the story. Plus the people who know the story didn't tell it in a very compelling way, so unless I'm going to insert myself in there and go “Hey guys this is what happened” and interpret it, it's not going to entertain. Plus it was more about New Zealand in the 1970s than about Margaret herself. So, you know, you have to kill the weak ideas that doesn't entertain, or fit. It's just going to get cut out. But yeah, Margaret was a really spicy woman. She lived an incredibly wild and transgressive life.
I tried to put in what I could corroborate, so if I felt people were being absolutely truthful and giving a compelling account, and if they contradicted one another, then it was totally going in there because the audience gets to decide who's the reliable narrator. I'm not colouring anybody's account, that's your job to decide. Also, part of it, I wanted to make it your problem as the viewer. Very early on I had one woman in America castigate me for putting Margaret having sex with two young men, and my answer was “Yes she did, and now it's your problem.”. Now you have to feel something about it, you have to get indignant or cheer. You have your own reaction, and that's how I make Margaret your problem.
You've never hidden your political feelings, I remember you being arrested for protesting Shell Oil, have you ever been worried about how that might affect your career, or as someone with a strong following do you feel duty bound to say “This is wrong, I believe this”?
I definitely thought after October 7th my film was dead, because we show Margaret who lived in Ramallah, and we show the exact dynamic that then played out in Gaza. This precursors it, this is not new. It was so horrifying that it seemed to me what was likely to happen was an enormous exponential reaction against a really horrifying attack when they took — how many — a thousand? Over a thousand people. Have you ever heard such a thing? The Israelis can only react one way, given their history, if the past is a predictor — this is going to be horrifying. I didn't say that because A) what good would it do, but B) who would believe me, you know? I'm just an actress. But, I was afraid the film would never get seen, it would be politicised, but we kept it about Margaret. The cut was locked about three weeks before October 7, and because it was about Margaret that was what saved the film. But, it didn't save anybody in the Middle East.
Also what the film taught me is that it's so complicated, if you jump too soon on one side you don't know who you're in bed with. It's just so complicated to wrap your head around. This was a scary one.
You yourself are no stranger to strong women. Xena is, of course, an icon. Spartacus as well. There is still a push against these fierce women in the media, despite the fact that Xena was quite a few years ago. Why is it such a problem? After Xena and Buffy in the 90s, you'd think there wouldn't be a pushback, why do you think that is?
That's a great question. I don't know why that is. Why do you think that is?
The basic answer I would give is — if the pendulum swings too far in one way, people push back against it.
Yeah, but it's not like the pendulum ever swung too much in that direction. But the change is definitely incremental. I loved seeing Zendaya in Dune, mind you that's an established book. I don't know why that is.
Not to dwell on Xena, but could we ever see a return? Could we see a Warrior Queen?
Yeah we could.
Could we see you direct? There are nineties children who need to know!
I don't think so, I don't think they would allow that, because it would be putting too much of the franchise in too few hands. I think that would be a corporate issue. But, moreover, I've got my own projects. If you're there before the money, if it's your idea, that's the drive you need. To push that idea for years, before you're promoting it to people. If the Xena film gets made, the person who drove that will own it, in terms of directing. I couldn't be a director for hire, it has to be in your [heart] from the start. I do feel that way about a couple of films I'm dying to make. It's a fight to get them made, but I'm up for it.
Are they documentaries, or are they narratives?
No, they're narratives. I did the documentary because I wanted to learn pure storytelling. To learn all the other aspects that I'm not normally associated with. Sound design, colour grading, even production design, the art departments, music, and of course being in the edit every step of the way. Now that I have rounded out my education I want to take it to what I know, which is film production — it's all I know, it's all I've ever done as a job. Suddenly now, Margaret has turned my life in a hard one-eighty. She's headed me in another direction. It's all I want to do now.
It'll be a loss if you're not on screen, do both! Front and back.
Aw, you sweetie.
Much like Margaret, you've taken on icon status to many people. How does it feel to be an icon of the LGBT+ community, because Xena is huge with us.
Still?
Yeah still!
That's so nice. That's beautiful. I love it. I guess they relate to having to be the warrior in their lives, the fight for authenticity, the fight for rights. Every one of them has to employ their warrior spirit just to get by.
Now that the film is out, and it's being reviewed, are you concerned with reviews, and what people think, or was the education on getting a film made more important?
No, reviews are very important. You need your Rotten Tomatoes, to get it to be seen. However, the journey, just as me moving forwards here on Earth, has been of incalculable value, to show me what I'm capable on. The hyper-focus. I've always been a bit ADD, and acting is all about having zero control but directing is about being across every discipline. It's not about control because you collaborate but you have a hand in anything. I never thought I wanted this, and I want it so hard! I found some really interesting properties that I'm driven to get funded and go make.
Just finally going back to Margaret and her legacy, do you think a film like this will get people thinking about a career in photojournalism, especially in a world where we're questioning the news and its role?
Yeah, I do hope people will go into it for the right reasons, to support truth, to propagate the truth. To speak for the voiceless, the non-competitive civil war. Even at home, you don't have to go to war. They are in every town across the world. You have to go into it for the right reasons. I hope it will engender a new respect, that's part of my deal with Margaret. I will tell the truth as I know it, tell it all, and bring the truth to her life's mission and her colleagues who are facing death.
Never Look Away is available on digital from January 6.
